The Nice Guy Syndrome
Decades of dramatic societal shifts have created a new breed of males.
Men who have been conditioned to seek the approval of others, especially the women in their lives. Men who are so concerned about looking good and doing “right” that they’ve lost touch with their masculinity.
When you look at what society portrays as masculine, it seems a bit off. Today’s magazine and television culture portrays men as buffoons, interested only in how to attain six pack abs and how to score with every woman that walks by.
But if you look deeper at today’s man, you’ll also see that he is good, giving and caring. He’s a Nice Guy. So what’s wrong with that you ask?
Today’s sensitive Nice Guy is often thought of by his behavior, and being kind and caring is an admirable behavior, but what I’m talking about is not his behavior, it’s his belief structure about himself and the world around him.
Underneath the Nice Guy’s behavior is something deeper.
A belief that if he is “good” and always does the right thing – even at the sacrifice of his own needs and masculinity – he will be loved, have his needs met, and have an overall smooth and happy life.
Today’s man often experiences an aimless wandering of his spirit. A meandering of his identity and an endless quest to “find himself.” And this is a big deal!
As a recovering Nice Guy myself, I’ve seen first hand how this syndrome impacts my life and those around me. I’ve also seen it in many of the clients I’ve worked with.
I was reluctant to grow up and assume the responsibilities of adulthood. I also was unsure about what it meant to be a man. So based on those around me it was easier to become a Nice Guy. It was easier to go with the flow and remain largely unseen.
That’s the issue with the Nice Guy.
The Nice Guy has lost the confidence of the men of the past, as well as the focus, skills and virtues that embodied the generation that led our nation through the Great Depression and a couple of World Wars.
There are several other reasons behind this shift. Feminism, while doing some great things for our society, complicated the message men received. Radical feminism frequently threw around statements like “men are pigs” and “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Boys raised by mothers during and after this movement grew up looking to their mom for definition and approval. Dad was often at work, possibly working multiple jobs, or absent entirely. Boys would attend female dominated education systems (I had 5 male teachers from Kindergarten to 12th grade).
If you subscribe to the idea, as I do, that masculinity bestows masculinity, then it’s pretty easy to see how the Nice Guy evolved.
Today – Nice Guys are everywhere.
He’s the one who’s wife runs the show.
He’s the one who so habitually avoids conflict that his wife or girlfriend experiences chronic frustration.
He’s the one who will do anything for a buddy, yet his own life is often chaotic and in shambles.
He’s the one who lets others walk all over him because he doesn’t want to rock the boat.
He’s the dependable guy who never says “no” to anyone.
He’s mister fix it for everyone else but himself.
He’s the guy who seeks approval from those around him.
Need I continue?
You may know one of these Nice Guys. He may be the one who’s reading this, or you’re married to him, or you attend church with him. Look around, he’s everywhere. And as a result, many marriages are suffering from monotony and boredom or falling apart at the seams.
Nice Guys have fallen victim to believing a myth. We do not live in an androgynous society, nor should we.
Men today need to learn to be men!
Not some watered down version of a man or some masculined version of a woman – they need to be strong, convicted, resolved, hairy legged men!
A belief only confirmed by the popularity of John Eldredge’s Wild at Heart and Brett McKay’s Art of Manliness blog.
I believe that’s what a woman really wants as well.
What do you think? Am I wrong in this observation?
Photo courtesy rubu74
Source – Robert Glover, No More Mr. Nice Guy
Corey is the editor of Simple Marriage as well as a licensed marriage & family therapist. While he has a Ph.D. in Family Therapy, he only occasionally likes to be called doctor. If you enjoyed this post, please subscribe so you don't miss any future posts.60 Responses to “The Nice Guy Syndrome”
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This was great, Corey. I think the issue of masculinity has been ignored far too long in academia and in Western culture in general. I don’t have anything much to contribute except to say way to go, and I hope men will continue to think about earning back their masculinity.
AMEN (or is that A-man?)! I am a big fan of AoM, and this is a message that I think is really making a comeback in the culture. You are not wrong, you’re right on.
I have to add one more description to the He’s the… section
He’s the guy who takes 5-6 years to complete his degree because he’s up all night playing World of Warcraft.
Nice guys drive me nuts.
Actually I would change your addition slightly … He’s the guy who continually shows up to work tired because he’s in his 30s, married with kids, and still up all night playing World of Warcraft.
I certainly agree with your observation! It seems that there are far too many nice guys, who I feel are unable to take care of themselves without the help of others. (This comes back to a personal definition of skills that men should know.)
I’m currently reading Wild at Heart and enjoying it.
Fabulous article Corey. At Divining Femininity we’re launching a workshop designed to help women find what it means to be a female in the 21st century, and the intention is to then develop it further addressing the very points you’ve raised here for men.
My own view is that, as women have created the changes they needed to move forward in society, over the last 40 years or so guys have had little choice but to accept and make changes too. All of these things were important for the growth to happen, and it’s now time for each to reclaim the inherent qualities which both sexes have been unable to access. It’s needed for definition and balance.
I’ve hoped it wasn’t going to be up to the women to drive it, and I really feel now that a joint approach and effort will prevail.
One of our group, Vena Ramphal already helps women to ‘Tear up the Good Girl Script’ and I think losing Mr Nice Guy is the perfect balance!
I’d love to hear more about how your venture goes. I think there is a definite need for what you’re planning. As well as a no more nice guy venture.
The manly man that you described Corey, is the most attractive man there is. While the “Nice Guy” may be easier to get along with (but really that is fake when you think about it because he is not being who he really is), the manly man shows up with all that he is and meant to be, full of Y chromosomes! Manly men are simply lucious!
I agree with parts – like your definition of a nice guy – but have a hard time that the Nice Guy is the fault of a society that values women as equal partners. Yes, you did say *radical* feminism, but feminism isn’t more to blame than the absentee fathers or lack of strong male role models in schools.
I would like to see a followup with characteristics of a Manly-Man. What do you feel those are?
I don’t think there’s linear causality in the Nice Guy creation. Many things contributed to the evolution of the Nice Guy, not just one or two things.
Thanks for the comment – I’ll work on a follow up.
I think you need to come up with a new term rather than “nice guy.” Because as I see it, as a single person, you really have two categories: nice guys or jerks. In the dating world, nice guys are few and far between. They open doors, introduce you immediately when you’re meeting people you don’t know, call when they say they’re going to call, and tell you it’s nice to hear from you when you call them. What you’re describing falls into the “jerk” category. The wishy-washy, I’ll avoid you and then you have to nag at me, rely on the girl to do their laundry, and are generally just pushovers. You’re describing the “Pushover Guy.” Because trust me, still being in the dating world, “Nice Guys” are truly hard to find. Perhaps you refer to these guys as “good guys?”
Also, I had a problem with: “A belief that if he is ‘good’ and always does the right thing – even at the sacrifice of his own needs and masculinity…” I’d be interested in hearing where you’re going with this. Since when is doing the right thing, not always the right thing to do? I guess an example would have helped for clarification. Thanks!
We could spend all day creating categories of people, which wouldn’t help anyone in the long run. What you describe is true, at least from the research I’ve found on the subject. I’ll explain more in a later post.
As for the “A belief that if he is ‘good’ and always does the right thing – even at the sacrifice of his own needs and masculinity…” statement, the doing the right thing is possibly wrong when the right thing is what others deem as right and not him. The best example I come across in my practice is men who think it is not right to disagree with their wife (which I see more than I thought I would).
There are clearly times when the right thing is always right, but often the Nice Guy will act out of fear of disappointment or fear of conflict rather than his values and convictions.
As I read through this post, Wild at Heart kept running through my mind, so no surprise to see John Eldredge towards the end. I think also that the companion book, Captivating, for women is great (I just finished reading it last week). I think women have also been raised to believe that the Nice Guy is who we want, when in reality we need a protector of our heart so that our beauty can be plainly shown to the world. It’s a mix of the two that really created an amazing dynamic, especially in marriage.
Agreed! I didn’t realize how deep this went until our church had a “Love and Respect” marriage conference (book available by Emerson Eggerich) When he spoke of respect the men around me literally had tears in their eyes- I believe respect is a correlate of the beaten down man inside them.
Men don’t need to learn to become men, men need to learn to be themselves and take responsibility for themselves.
You’re extolling the virtues of masculinity here, but you’re completely glossing over how masculinity hurts men. Masculinity hurts men because it says that they are not true providers unless they buy diamond rings worth three months of their salary. Masculinity hurts men because it says that they should be violent or else they’re not a real man. Masculinity hurts men just as much as femininity hurts women. Both of these concepts are concepts that are imbued with a patriarchal view point that simply hurts people by keeping them in society’s boxes.
Too much masculinity (just like too much femininity) can harm others and yourself – you’re correct. I think of true masculinity as you describe, be who you truly are and take responsibility for yourself. Masculinity as society has often tried to define it is more machismo than masculine, and machismo does harm everyone.
I think that a word that would be more acceptable to cultural critics like me is “identity” — yeah, you can parse masculinity and machismo, but they’re two sides to the same coin. They both suggest “male-ness” in a way that needs to be acted out in society. What about transgendered persons? What about women who suffer from “nice girl” syndrome — a syndrome that is sometimes a synonym for femininity? No one should lay down and let someone else run their life, but this is by no means a problem that only men struggle with.
And the same with equating “man” with responsibility, self-control and self-awareness. Why not use adult? We need to become adults in our relationships (as you write often) but there are different portions of adulthood — spiritual, emotional, physical, relationally. By using the words “identity,” and “adult,” you could just as easily be talking to both sexes.
We don’t live in an androgynous world, you’re right. But instead of seeing a particular problem as gendered — why not see how the same thing could be hurting both women and men instead of deciding that it only hurts one or the other?
Identity is a HUGE word, and problem with many people today. It takes a great deal to know who you are and live from there. It falls right in line with the growing up in marriage aspect I believe so much in.
The “nice girl” syndrome is equally an issue, I just didn’t write on it because I wanted to take on my own kind first.
I do see many of the problems as gendered however. I think that each person (male or female) was created for a purpose and has definite strengths that are found in their gender. It’s not a competition of which gender is better, right, in charge – it’s a journey towards being who you are in its entirety. All male, or all female – that to me is the spark for lasting, passionate marriages and relationships. It’s not our differences that cause the problems, it’s what provides the energy and excitement.
Great discussion Kate.
I want to speak to some personal experience here as illustrations of my point of view — but neither am I offering them as the end-all, be-all of how things are.
The first is that I have found gendered descriptions of roles in society very limiting. For example, when I think about being my mother’s daughter, I think about the position I was put in during my adolescence of being responsible for my mother’s emotions. But when I think about being my mother’s child, I think about the respect I owe her for her wisdom and the fact that I am not responsible for her emotions or lifestyle because I am not her. Same with the word wife. When I think of being a wife, I think of not being able to pursue my passions, resentfully completing all of the housework and carrying the emotional load of the marriage. But when I think about being a partner to my husband, I am suddenly equipped with communication skills and self-control and the ability to split the work so that we’re living out our lives together. I can imagine that there may be men out there that find being sons and husbands are equally restricting in an expression of equality and love and respect and responsibility in relationships.
There are stereotypes about men and women out there — machismo for men, inappropriate passivity for women — which men and women act out even if it is not the purpose for which they were created. And when they don’t act upon those scripts — for example, a man as a primary care giver of children or elderly parents, women a the CEOs of a company — they’re told that they are weird, and less than genuine.
I’m a planner. My husband loves to fly by the seat of his pants. To the casual outside observer, I run the household. And (okay, only married for 8 months here) I HAVE in the past, but I am beginning to step back and listen for his hesitation, his resentment, to give him the space to speak up. We both have to grow up — and for me, that means being less controlling. (But, on the other hand, men who are controlling in a marriage is a problem too. Perhaps the symptoms of the problem manifest differently, but both genders suffer from the same problems.)
Thank you for entertaining the discussion. I think we agree on a lot of points.
I think you’re confusing masculinity with chauvanism. Masculinity has little to do with going back to the outdated social mores of the 50s, and more to do with understanding what makes men men. The idea is to (re)discover masculinity and femininity as ying and yang, balanced and different, not outdated stereotypes.
Masculinity as it is used in the book and blog that Corey referenced (and in this post) may have little to do with “outdated social mores of the 50s” (which I would argue are still in use in more subtle ways today). However, a definition of masculinity I pulled from the dictionary says this: “Something traditionally considered to be characteristic of a male.”
What are some of the things that you consider traditionally characteristic of a male? I think there are positives and negatives.
The positives is what you and Corey and most of the commenters are referencing: self-control, directness/not afraid of conflict, able to say no, able to stand up for themselves. Men whose self-worth comes from internal sources. All of these things I agree with. I wouldn’t necessarily call them masculinity, though. Because these are all things I aspire to be, and if they were masculinity, I would would want to be a very masculine woman.
The negatives are what I am concerned about: Men being responsible for their wife and kids (their actions, their failures, etc.) instead of responsible *to* them. Men whose self-worth is dictated by their jobs, or their status symbols. Men who do not care how their influence effects their significant relationships, because they are men. Men who are head of the household in such a way that inspires fear and loathing in their families.
As a social scientist, defining words is very important. I can understand your concept of yin and yang, but I am wondering how femininity would be different than masculinity? I see the way it’s described in this post as simply an ideal of “adulthood.”
I think the word in that definition that is causing us to disagree is ‘traditionally’. Also I think you are confusing ‘characteristics’ with ‘roles’.
The negatives that you are highlighting are those “outdated social mores of the 50s” that I was speaking about, as they are what you see as traditional masculine stereotypes.
Why should masculinity be defined by tradition? How can masculinity be defined by tradition? I think that is where we differ in our understanding of masculinity. You are defining it in what it has been, and within that you must therefore look at how it has been portrayed within certain epochs. I agree that the traits you have relayed are negative, but my point is they do not define all that it means to be masculine, as it would never do to define femininity as doing the household chores.
I think the dynamics got thrown off in society. Men and women in relationships were IMHO compliemntary before. Now I feel it is a competition.
And women you are going to hate this. We need to piss you off. You heard that right. When we let all go you lose respect for us and us NG tend to avoid this.
Now this is where it gets dicey. Men are supposed to lead and us NG handed over the keys to the car. When we take them back things will turn into the relationship both parties wanted or it will end.
I hate the dynamics that have been at play. I am now a good guy and not nice and will no longer be subject to the bitch card where I change my view based upon my wife bitching.
I feel better but what it does to the M who knows? My wife has had me in the doormat mode for so long she may not like the new me and thats OK. I like me better now and boy do I piss her off now that I believe in myself and no longer need ANYBODY to tell me I am good. I am!
Kate, masculinity has nothing to do with what you can buy, or with violence. The dictionary defines it as ‘strength’ or ‘boldness.’ Masculinity lies in NOT using those things to hurt others.
Delurking here to say that I’m really interested to see where this goes. I would love to see how you describe the “right” way to be a man. You say that men need to do what’s right for themselves but also say that men were shown in the past forty years to look for women’s approval. Do you have a suggestion for how boys are raised to be right for themselves?
I’ll try to expand this a bit more in the future but the short response would be that boys can’t be raised to be men without a man passing it down. While this usually is the role of the father, it can be done by any male that plays a role in the boys raising (Uncle, Step-father, mentor, minister, etc.). I fully believe that masculinity bestows masculinity – its the only way its attained.
Corey…..I think you are on a track that needs to be inspected more closely. I agree that men today struggle with who they are, where their value comes from, etc. Women do too. Example: the dialog about the men staying up to play WoW and being late for work speaks to the idea that many men today gain their personal worth by how far they can go in a video game. Maybe our worth should be defined by something different, e.g., how my maker views me. I have had the opportunity of counseling many young couples before marriage over the years, and one thing I always hammer is respect (thanks Micayla). If a relationship is built on mutual respect it lends itself to defined roles as God intended. It is not a competition, a race to see who is better, it is a mutually beneficial situation where as each one fulfills his/her proper role, both grow as people and then can teach the same to the generations that follow.
One of the most visible proofs of your original “argument” is the way dads lead kids today. I see on a very regular basis, the 2-3 year kids are the authority in the family. Watch them in a restaurant and see who determines where they eat, what they eat, where they sit, etc. Guys……don’t try to be the kids best friend (Mr. Nice Guy), be their dad. Show them how a man loves his family by instructing them and teaching them respect………
Better stop, but thanks for this dialog. It is great!
You hit it right on the head! Society has determined for a long time how a man should be and that it is okay for a woman to “wear the pants”. I am so glad that I finally discovered exactly what God had intended in marriage and relationships. There is a peace that comes when you know your role, the expectations and how I can best support my husband in that role. Thanks Corey, I hope you touch a lot of people with your post.
I agree with you completely. Like many men… I have abdicated my position of authority in my home and at work while trying to be the “nice guy.” My challenge is how do you begin to take the steps to change? I’ve read “Wild at Heart” and love the “Art of Manliness” blog… but both fall short on providing an actionable plan for turning things around. Unlike our fathers and grandfathers… we have lost the ability to “plan” and “act” on our own. It is a sad state of affairs. I have two sons and I’m afraid they don’t stand a chance… especially, since I’m their example in this area.
Ken- I think that recovering from the Nice Guy world is best done in a community with other men. Perhaps we could find a couple of other recovering Nice Guys to join us and all work on this together.
Sounds like a whole new blog could be built around this theme. I know that AofM tries to do this… but it could use a more focused approach and dialogue.
For an actionable plan based on Wild at Heart, check out the Wild at Heart: Field Manual. It’s a guided journal that can take a man or a group of men through the process of reclaiming masculinity – it was a difficult and powerful journey for me.
Thanks James. I will check that out. I loved the “Wild at Heart” book and have downloaded an audio version that I listen to during my commute.
As a recovering NG myself, let me give a common scenario where the nice guy, integrated male, and jerk handle the same situation. Ladies, imagine you’re dating one of these guys and he is setting up a date.
NG: Where do you want to go?
Woman: I don’t know, why don’t you plan something.
NG: No really, whatever you want to do is fine.
Woman: (frustrated) OK, let’s just go to YY for dinner and a movie.
Night of date, NG shows up late, making all kinds of excuses. He is quiet during dinner because he really wanted to go to XX. He is passive and forces the woman to keep the conversation running, but will do anything she asks, even if he doesn’t want to.
IM: (Woman’s name), I’d like to take you to dinner at XX at 7:30 Friday night.
Woman: Oh, that sounds good, but I was thinking of going to YY?
IM: I had heard that XX is a great new place and I’ve never been there. Let’s go there this Friday and try YY some other time, OK?
Woman: (Relieved) Yes, that sounds great.
Night of date, IM shows up on time and they have a great time where he opens doors, participates and often leads interesting conversation. He takes the lead in all things, but doesn’t ignore what his woman likes.
Jerk: We’re going out Friday night.
Woman: Um, OK. Where are we going?
Jerk: My friend’s band is playing at ZZ club. Meet me there at 8.
Woman: Can’t we grab some dinner before?
Jerk: No, I’ve got stuff to do.
Woman: OK
Night of date, she arrives at club at 8. He shows up at 8:30 and proceeds to ignore her most of the night. Flirts with other women, often openly, and still expects “extras” at the end of the evening. He is always mysterious, which, sadly, is often quite interesting and gets him lots of women, but few second or third dates.
At first, the NG seems like the perfect guy because you always get to do what you want and he never puts up a fight. Over time, however, the burden of carrying the relationship gets heavy. He is moody and makes “covert contracts”, where he does something nice for you only because he expects some unsaid reward in return.
I think you get the idea. The opposite of “nice guy” isn’t jerk and the opposite of jerk isn’t “nice guy.” The opposite of both is a confident, integrated man who knows what he wants and how to lead the relationship. He is the antithesis to what radical feminism says about men, yet even the most radical feminist in her deepest heart recognizes the worth in such a man.
The difficulty in recovering from nice guy syndrome is that it is very easy to swing too far and act like a jerk from time to time.
Just to add a thought about going to extremes to the discussion – the opposite of crazy is still crazy.
From a different example, you can be all thinking or all emotions, when the whole goal of growing and maturing is to be both.
From one Ken to another I think you make a good point. It would be easy for me to swing to the far extreme of just being a jerk! The challenge is finding a middle ground that truly reflects the type of man that you want be and an acceptable level of assertiveness.
I think we need to be careful in holding up the men of past generations as an ideal of manliness. Sure, they often were more forthright and assertive, but there was a lot of brokenness. My Grandfather was a manly man who served in WWII, but he would not allow his wife to drive or have any more money than it would take to buy groceries.
The pendulum swung far to the other side with Nice Guys, but if we try to recapture what was in the past we are just getting on the pendulum again. I say we get off the ride and ask for a refund.
Interesting post yet again. I think that women are looking for a man who is separate from them in their core identity. We lose attractiveness when we lose that “separateness”, the difference that makes a man different from a woman.
I do agree with those who think there’s a difference between “nice guy” and “pushover”. I married a nice guy. He can be strong without force, speak volumes with few words and be loyal without betraying his core values. I came from a long line of men who demanded strict obedience with violence and who “proved” their manliness with strings of affairs. I’ll stick with my nice guy, thanks.
great post. i know some ‘nice guys’ and would love to see them be able to be confident and be themselves.
Corey,
Thanks for the article you nailed it. I am 41 and a recovering “nice guy”, always playing the part of “good baptist boy”, I just started this past year to enjoy the taste of cigars and beer, the first time in 40 years. Why? just realizing that there is nothing wrong with being a man being masculine and having friends who hold high moral and Christian convictions without being a bunch of wimps. Here is to the return of John Wayne!
Totally agree with your post Corey!
We’ve long since been having discussions around this issue. In reference to James’ post above, I don’t think holding up men of the past as ideals in ‘manliness’ is necessarily the issue here – more that men generally, in their roles as men, have lost their way / their identity / their perceived purpose. It’s all very well having hunter/gatherers but when you can buy everything you need… what then? If women can provide for themselves, what is a man’s role in a relationship? Add to that the changing dynamics of family units, the current state of feminist evolution and you have a melting pot of perceptions / ideals / belief structures.
I, too, will be following your posts with interest!
“Men today need to learn to be men!”
Seriously?
Hi, i just stumbled upon this website and I really loved the article. I’ve also read Wild at Heart and am currently studying For Women Only by Shaunti Feldhahn with my church which discusses similar issues about today’s man. I don’t really have much to say except thank you for your post and I’m looking forward to any follow-up articles.
Excellent and important discussion.
My thoughts fall largely in line with yours, Corey. Great post. I agree that there is a real extent to which men have been emascualted by societal forces, including the church. (Paul Coughlin has a book called “No More Christian Nice Guy” that deals extensively with the church and the nice guy syndrome). I agree with Jack and Susan that we need to consider God’s intentional design when he “made them male and female.” There is so much fear over identifying and defining roles, fear that it is somehow constraining and discriminitory. But I feel strongly that the opposite is true – that it is greatly freeing and actually allows people to find genuine fulfillment.
Looking forward to the continued dialog on this…
Interesting discussion and interesting post. I too look forward to hearing your ideas of what makes a “man”.
One thing that the discussion brings up for me: why is it necessary for a man to “lead” in a marriage, to “lead” in all things, as several comments have mentioned? Is marriage not a partnership? My view of marriage is that no one person (man or woman) leads all the time. Sometimes the woman leads, sometimes the man, sometimes both together lead the family.
(man – you lay up convalescing for a day and 45+ comments beat you to it!)
That (article) is so true it’s scary. I’ve been kicking this very same treatise around in my head for a while now. Compound that with being raised in a turn-the-other-cheek post-hippie Christian environment where self-determinism and proactive drive (“hustle”) are seen as vices of a materialistic, male/winner dominated and Godless world, you meekly sit back and wait to inherit the earth, or wait/pray for God to “open another door”…. I’m not bitter *cough*. Just cynical.
I can’t recall many “man lesson” moments with my dad. Maybe he was a Nice Guy and you have to go back another generation to find the shift. But I did get the distinct impression from my parents, growing up, that the world is run by manly men, and that is a big part of what’s wrong with the world.
Corey, you have a good start on what Nice Guy Syndrome is all about, but you’re missing an important element for many sufferers: fear. Nice guys are afraid of so many things. They’re afraid to fail, and they’re afraid to succeed too well lest people start paying more attention to them and find out that they really aren’t as good as they appear to be. Add your blog post to this woman’s bitter rant and my thoughts on the topic, and I think you’ll have a much better picture of the full Nice Guy Syndrome.
I see that you mention John Eldredge’s book Wild At Heart. In his book he makes reference to “Real Men” such as James Bond and Maximus of Gladiator. These are morally flawed men who I would never aspire to be like. It’s hard for me to give any credit to the “Real Men” or “Nice Guy” approach when it is advised by worldly men. A servant’s heart is what Jesus was all about. I will stick to Jesus and The Word for my example.
I completely agree Dave. Thanks for the comment.
I heard this argument many times and ceases to be less flawed everytime I hear it. The first thing that I like to address is how exactly do you define masculinity. If you define masculinity as being vulgar, selfish, amoral, insensitive, sex crazed, cocky, overbearing then these are all negative attributes that no one should abide. Unfortunately, being so called masculine are in fact associated with negative qualities while feminism is associated with nurturing, innocence, empathy, conscience, etc. For the sake of argument if you don’t want men to reject masculinity then don’t associate masculinity with all negative qualities. If men believe that nice ( or good) guys that show generosity, sensitives, and empathy are rejecting their masculinity proves that people believe that masculinity can’t be associated with any good. However, I don’t believe that masculinity is an negative, because to me masculinity is simply the display of aggression and dominance. There are nice guys that do have masculine traits, while other are not considered fit stereotypical gender roles. It is important to realize that not every can be masculine not because their rejecting gender identity; it is because there just not who they are as a person. It’s unrealistic to believe that every man can be the alpha male. Men are individuals some are more masculine others are less. Does that men that are less masculine should abide by gender stereotypes? No, conformity is not the answer because nice guys need to accept who they are and most importantly make others around them accept it as well. The fact that we don’t live in a androgynous society is no reason to try to become someone your not. There is nothing wrong with not fitting male stereotypes, but there is something wrong with not accepting who you are. Furthermore, even if you believe that nice guys are rejecting their masculinity you can’t blame radical feminist, since a lot of them misandrist and would hate men rather he was a nice guy or not. As matter of fact radical feminist are known to despise nice guys.
I think a lot people believe that in relationship or in marriage that either the husband or wife has to be in charge. Why must their be someone “wearing the pants”? Isn’t an adult relationship based on equality and sharing responisbility rather then someone being dominater and dominatee.
I am still married to a nice guy. He cold-bloodedly dropped me when he thought he had give me his all and wasn’t getting anything in return. He couldn’t be further away from the truth. He was my number 1 at all times (even before the kids). The fatal thing was that he constantly tried to fix me, trying to make me happy (when I didn’t need to be happy, not on his terms anyway) and when he failed, he got frustrated. He constantly asked me to smile because I radiate when I do so. In his mind he blocked the other parts of me, I guess.
Problem for me is: I am still madly in love with him, he made me his goddess after all. We had a great relationship, I thought. We somehow must have lost ourselves in each other to the point that we didn’t fancy each other much in bed (never had really hot, passionate sex, always just nice). Nothing that wasn’t fixable in my book but he chose the easy road out and fell in love with another woman (who incidentally is very similar to me in character). Different woman, same game. When they become not nice it’s like the drop of an atomic bomb. How nice is that?
I find myself struggling with some of these very same issues. I too am a fan of AoM but was not familiar with “Wild at Heart” (I just bought it from your Amazon link). When you mentioned the “aimless wandering of his spirit” and “Dad was often at work, possibly working multiple jobs” it was speaking directly to me.
My father is a man’s man for sure and I learned many things from him but mostly indirectly as he worked very long hours (mostly heavy construction). I had an uncle that was in WWII and built cabinets for a livng that was also a great rolemodel for me.
I am very self reliant and can take care of the house fixing things etc. but conflict avoidance at home has become a problem. It hasn’t been an issue at work though.
I’m looking forward to reading “Wild at Heart”
how do you stop being a “nice guy”? I have been married for 12 years and just found out that my wife has cheated on me because i was two nice?! She never suggested that she was unhappy or needed any thing from me different than what i already was providing. I am successful at work, involved in my kids activities.
I do not like unresolved issues so we talk about them until they are resolved. I like to spoil my wife…. at least i used to. I enjoy seeing her smile. should i have stopped doing those things? We have discussed many things and she stated that my character and willingness to compromise is one of the things she loves most about me.
does she win every argument? no. but she wins more than i do. I dont know…. but i dont feel like the “nice guy”.